- Hi friends. I'm super excited to be presenting to you the 20th episode of the Cerebrations Podcast.

- As we reach this amazing milestone, I would like to say how grateful I am to everyone who has supported this project over the past 18 months, whether as a guest speaker on the podcast, or as a listener, or even as someone who may have recommended this podcast to a friend or a business associate. Thank you very much from the bottom of my heart.

- Today we'll talk about the applications of Behavioral Science in business settings, especially from the marketing and customer retention perspectives. For those of you who watch this podcast regularly, you'll find some links back to episode six and seven where we talked about The Challenger Sale methodology, the JOLT effect, customer indecision, and the fear of messing up. You also find this episode to be a very timely and relevant segue from the great conversation we had on customer retention in episode 19.

- I've invited Shirin Oreizy as my guest today. She's the founder and CEO of Next Step, an award-winning behavioral design agency based in San Francisco. She's also a guest lecturer at Stanford and NYU and her work on applying Behavioral Science in marketing and products is often featured in publications such as "Forbes" and "Inc Magazine." Her company has helped both emerging and established brands to increase demand for their products and services.

- Without further ado, I would like to invite Shirin Oreizy to the virtual stage.

- Hi Shirin, how are you?

- Hi, good Emil, good to be here.

- Great, thank you so much for attending this podcast episode. I'm thrilled to talk about Behavioral Science, which is the topic of today's episode. And before we get started, I would like to take care of a few housekeeping things. So I'm putting on the bottom of the screen a little CTA, call to action, for everyone who's watching this podcast to visit cerebrations.info and find out more about you, and also see what other guests I've hosted over the last 19 episodes and they can watch whatever interviews maybe of interest to them. So I just wanted to point this out and with that in mind, I think now we're ready to get started. I think many people that are diving into this conversation have probably heard of Behavioral Science, but just to level the playing field, make sure that everyone is on the same page, can you give me the bird's eye view, the kind of the elevator pitch definition of what's Behavioral Science is?

- Yeah, absolutely. So I might start off by maybe giving a quick example that hopefully you, yourself and your listeners can relate to. And I'll start it off by asking you a question, which is, Emil, you strike me as a pretty healthy person and I would assume you have a pretty decent idea of what it takes to be healthy, right? So eat your fruits and vegetables and drink water and exercise and get enough sleep. But here's a catch, Emil, have you ever missed a morning workout or didn't get your eight hours of sleep because you were binge watching Netflix the night before?

- Oh yeah, it's happened.

- Exactly, well, you skipped your breakfast and instead like got a shot of espresso, et cetera. And so hopefully this really simple example illustrates something that you and your listeners can all relate to that basically there's a gap between what we know we should do, which is sleep and exercise and eat healthy and what we actually end up doing, which is binge watching Netflix, grabbing the burger, et cetera. And so it's closing this gap between knowledge and action that Behavioral Science really shines because as Behavioral Scientists, we're always taking into account that people's emotions, their environment, whether it's a digital one or a physical one and social factors, all of these actually influence how we make decisions. And we like to say, sometimes you're perfectly rational like Spock, but oftentimes we're not. We have biases. We take mental shortcuts, et cetera, that make us a little bit more irrational, like Homer Simpson. And so as Behavioral Scientists, we don't believe in giving you tons of content about the efficacy of sleep and exercise because we know that's not what's gonna get you up in the morning. And instead we might like help design an app that donates, $10 to a charity that you don't believe in every time you miss a workout. So to bring it all into a bird's eye view, simply put, Behavioral Science is the study of how people really make decisions. And we say really, because we take into account that people's emotions, their environment, social factors, all of these influence our decisions. Sometimes we're rational like Spock, oftentimes we're not. We're more like Homer Simpson.

- Thank you, that's a great way of defining it and very good example you provided. And I think hopefully none of us are really like Spock 'cause we're humans and he's not human, right? So sorry, but on the other hand, I know exactly what you mean 'cause I think that a lot of times I know what's the rational decision, what's the good decision to make and I still opt for the bad decision that I with all my consciousness, I know that I'm doing the wrong thing and I'm still doing that. So, I know what you mean by that. So the follow up question to this will be how did you get involved with Behavioral Science? What's your journey to where you are right now?

- Yeah, absolutely. So I actually started my career not in Behavioral Science at all. I was a engineer by training, worked in tech for a number of years as electrical engineer, computer scientist. And then I started Next Step a number of years ago and we were largely a digital design agency for a good chunk of our existence. And it wasn't until a more recently where I met my now husband that I discovered Behavioral Science. So at the time he was running a series of sleep medicine clinics nationwide, he's also an entrepreneur and they were getting some of the best adherence rates to these really difficult treatment plans and the nation like about 79, 80%. And I was like just really fascinated, I was like, how in the world are you getting people to like wear these like really invasive CPAP machines? And he shared the secret, which is he'd read every single Behavioral Science book that he could find and he was really methodically implementing it inside the business. And that had resulted in them having a much more higher adherence to the treatment plans. And so that really got me on my journey to try to understand what it is. And today our work is really about bringing the great work that's been done in academia in terms of understanding how people make decisions and applying it in the real world, in real environments. Our focus is very much in the context of marketing and product and customer experience. And that's where we do a lot of our Behavioral Science work.

- Yeah and I think that's, that's actually probably, those are the most natural areas where you supply something like that because that's where decisions are made in a business setting. And I'm obviously gonna ask you why is Behavioral Science important in marketing? But before I do this, I'll provide, you mentioned a few examples, so I provide an example, correct me if I'm wrong, but the one thing that I always think about is the easiest way to explain Behavioral Science to anyone who asks is, and it's not new anymore. It's been around for more than a decade, even probably two decades. But you go to the airports and in the men's your toilet, you have the urinals and they have this little fly in the middle of it. That's the perfect example of like how you make people do something that they may not pay attention to otherwise.

- Absolutely, yeah.

- Just like the dumbest way of explaining it, but it's also the fastest way I guess to explain it sometimes. So why is Behavioral Science important in marketing?

- Yeah, so I think the problem that I see and the challenge in marketing that we have is that we have this tendency to think like economists and basically assume we're dealing with Spock because traditional economics has been around much longer than Behavioral Science or Behavioral Economics, which has been around since like the late sixties or seventies. And so it's really steeped into our way of thinking. And so we have this tendency as marketeers to just assume that if I give my users more information, more content, that's gonna drive their behavior. But as Behavioral Scientists, we're recognizing that knowledge alone, as we talked about, doesn't drive behavior. And so we're always looking for what are unique ways that we can help marketeers really understand other factors, people's emotions, how they design an environment. For example, you spoke about a physical environment design. In our world, a lot of times we're doing digital environment design. So in a digital capacity, how are you nudging people, to make decisions in your brand's favor, et cetera. So it's really core to shifting the way that we think about the user on the other side as not being a rational agent always.

- Yeah, it's always been fascinating to me that economists always assume that it's a rational market. Everyone is acting rationally and even businesses in our acting rationally, let alone as humans, where we have to face our emotions and fears every day. So it's important to realize that there is an area that could be used in that regard. I guess one thing that some people may be wondering about is, or they may actually for that reason have a little bit of a skeptical view on Behavioral Science, especially when it's applied in commercial setting like marketing or sales, is that they may feel like they're being manipulated, that whatever is is being done is done with the pure intent to just make you consume more or make you binge, watch more. Because again, that leads to consuming more, which has financial implications for the person who's designing this. So what's your take on that? Like how would you counter that in terms of like maybe alleviating concerns that it's only a gimmick to make people do more of what you want 'em to do?

- Yeah, I think, well first of all, I might consider reframing gimmick to, if it can get people to do what you want them to do, that sounds like a pretty powerful tool. So to me the bigger concern is like, look, this is a pretty powerful tool once we understand how to nudge people and how to change in their motivations. And so I think it's really important that we think about how do we do this in an ethical manner? And actually the area within Behavioral Science, we call it sludge or dark nudges, where unfortunately there are actors, there are bad actors out there that will sometimes use these techniques in nefarious ways. So for us as both Behavioral Scientists and also just the broader Behavioral Science community, what you see is that there's a big consideration of what companies are we working with and what is their impact. So as an example, at Next Step, we often times we literally showcase our team what are the companies that we've declined working with because we don't believe in their practices. So we deal with a lot of companies in the financial decision making space. So we're very careful that they're not like predatory lenders and they are providing the best financial products and solutions for the market. The same thing for B2B players. So it really comes down to our practice of making sure that we are working with ethical companies that are ultimately helping people do good. And so we're using these tools for good. And I would say like any tool, you see this with AI or any other tool, you can always use it in a nefarious sense. And so it really comes back to the ethical considerations of the companies that are doing it.

- Yeah, ethical considerations. I'll also, I mean based on what you're telling me, it seems like transparency is also very important 'cause you're being absolutely transparent that there are some customers that you're not gonna work with because you just don't believe in the application of Behavioral Science in their case. So we talked about customers, we talked about applications. So can you share some examples of Behavioral Science applications, especially on the B2B side?

- Yeah, absolutely. And this is where we might start showing some visuals to the audience as well, so they can hopefully follow along. But I'd say thematically, a common challenge that we are dealing with in a B2B space for our clients is that because they don't have a clear understanding of what's motivating the decision making process in their audience, a lot of times the effect of that is that they then struggle in their positioning and their messaging and generating leads, et cetera, from their marketing efforts. And so some of our work, and I'll cover this, some work that we did for a client as an example, they came to us where they had not done any research to understand people's motivations around using their solution. They were in sort of the digital transformation space. So they helped big enterprise companies like Ford and Adidas bring in digital solutions, but they were really struggling to increase adoption for their services. And so when they came to us, one of the first things that we did was we looked at how are they communicating in their marketing and sales, our first two prospects. And one thing became very clear, which was that they were using what we call a lot of gain frame messaging. So here's all the things that you can gain by using our innovative solutions. And if you think about it, you see this quite a bit in the B2B space, especially if we're bringing technology solutions, it's a lot of trying to motivate people based on what they can gain from your product. And we just kind of took note of that and we're like, okay, this is making a certain assumption that that's gonna motivate people. And then in our second step of our process, we have a science of design process. The second step is where we go out there and talk to users. And so we went and talked to a handful of these C-level CTOs, et cetera, and a theme quickly emerged. These people seemed very risk averse. When we talked to them about, in the past, have you used solutions like this? How has it gone? They were like, yes, we have, it's gone horribly wrong. We know we were promised something. We later found out that it introduced a lot of operational costs, et cetera. And so that really led us to believe that there's a potential mismatch between how their marketing efforts was trying to motivate people and how people were actually motivated. And another thing that we found in our research was that when we probed people around what are other solutions that you're considering, they talked about how they would hire, the big consulting, the McKenzies and BCGs. And that to us was another kind of red flag because we know no one's gonna get fired from hiring the big consulting firms. You just spend a couple million dollars. And so at that point, what we wanted to understand as Behavioral Scientists was, okay at scale what happens because really our goal is to help our clients scale their marketing efforts. And so we were saying like, when you talk to a handful of people that are saying this, and so we actually designed experiments on LinkedIn targeting the exact audience that they were trying to reach. And then we delivered a set of messages, one set was based on testing out this, our people, what we call prevention or promotion oriented. So prevention oriented people are always people that are thinking about what does your product or solution help prevent for me and promotion oriented people are always thinking about what does your product enable me to do? They were speaking to their prospects as if they're promotion oriented. We were hearing that these people might be prevention oriented. So you'll see in the design of our ads with very subtle changes in language, we tested for this, we also tested for the effect of a bigger, better known competitor and kind of comparing them to that. And we did all of these tests against their best performing ads. And this is something that we do as a whole. We always take a client's best performing ads and we try to beat it with our Behavioral Science principles. And what we found at scale across thousands of users was that that prevention messaging was working way better than the promotion messaging. And so this allowed us, as you can see in the next screens, to go back and re change their messaging to be much more prevention oriented, how do we de-risk things? How do we prevent revenue losses, et cetera. And then ultimately our next step was to prove that the stuff works in generating leads. And so we ran a campaigns for them on LinkedIn on Google using this new direction and messaging and within a year we were able to have a like about a 10x return on advertising spend. So I think one thing I wanna really call out for the audience that's hearing and listening to this is that as Behavioral Scientists, the way our research is different from say a market research firm, is that we really believe in running our experiments in real life environments where the actual decision is being made and then proving what works and what doesn't work as opposed to doing focus groups and surveys and having people pontificate around a future decision, you wanna measure the actual decision.

- Yeah, so it's almost like in effect you're running AB tests in real life with your messaging versus the traditional best performing traditional messaging that would've been used. And a lot of what you're saying resonates with the discussion I had earlier in this podcast. I invited someone who's written a lot of books on sales methodology and that's, he is the co author of The Challenger Sale. But also more recently he's wrote a book about customer indecision called JOLT, the JOLT effect. And it's quickly becoming very popular in the sales world. And what he found through his work on this book was that only about 40 to 50% of the times when we can sell is because we haven't convinced people to actually break from the status quo. That they need your product, your product is gonna help them with XYZ. A lot of times they've already passed that level, you've become their vendor of choice and they still don't make a decision. And it's that indecision that's the problem. And it's not the fear of missing out, it's the fear of messing up. They just don't wanna mess up. They don't wanna do something that will position them as the pariahs in their company because they were the ones that brought in this contract or whatever. And, and it's interesting 'cause sales are waking up to this and then the past 12, 12 months has been like one of the fastest growing ideas in that space. But what you say is very similar to that the you code preventative versus promotional or no, no, what is it, not preventative, prevention.

- So prevention versus promotion. And by the way, I'm actually familiar, I've had conversations with the Challenger Sale's team, so it's really great. So what you're mentioning there, are other biases that we have as humans, which is, it literally goes back to the Homer Simpson. So as Homer Simpson, indecision status quo bias, this idea that I don't wanna change what I'm currently doing because of the risk factors is a huge factor. And so that's always something that we're looking at to figure out how do you overcome status quo bias. But I think one of the other things that the research points to, which is another kind of Behavioral Science principle is that a lot of times there's association with like friction to change. And so just knowing as an example, which one of your plans is most appropriate for me, et cetera, like all the different ways to like remove friction from the buying process. Which is again another Behavioral Science principle to really get people to choose your solution. So absolutely there's probably well over 300 research backed principles in Behavioral Science that we leverage for our clients. That is exactly that. What are all the different decision shortcuts and biases that we have.

- Great, so that's very helpful and thanks for tying it back to the example I provided from the Challenger and the JOLT methodologies. I know you've mentioned in the past to me in private conversations that Behavioral Science can do pretty good or provide some pretty good results when it relates to trade conferences as well or events. And I'm sure that most people that have been in marketing and sales on the B2B side will agree with me that there's always a chunk of your budget that's tied into that. I mean, no matter where you are, no matter how many times you've gone to these conferences and it's not trivial because even if you just go to one or two of these, you have the cost of sending your staff there and the travel expenses and accommodations, but there's also you have to pay for the tier whatever that you're sponsoring. So you get your booth, you have to have your collaterals shipped and all this stuff. It's a lot of money and there's also the opportunity cost of these people going to the event rather than doing their normal lead generation, calling and scoping new customers. So anytime you mention that there's a way to increase the ROI on events as a marketeer, my ears perk up and I want to hear more. So can, I know it can, but how can Behavioral Science be leveraged for better ROI on events?

- Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. That's where most of B2B budgets are. So this example that I'll share is a client of ours that was really in the same boat. So I think a very large chunk of their overall marketing budget was tied into events. And the challenge that they had, which is common to B2B, is that they just weren't able to get as many leads as they needed from events. And so when you look at this from a Behavioral perspective, we come to conferences, we are usually in what's called a hot or activated state. So this is where motivation is high because we're talking to people or motivating people, et cetera. And then the minute we leave the conference, that motivation level just starts declining and we start going into like a more neutral or cold state, even if we had the best intention to follow up and have conversations with folks that we met at the conference. And so the challenge that we had here was how do we leverage that high motivation status that people have when they're physically at the event to what happens after, which is generating leads for their sales team. So it's connecting those two behaviors. And so one of the key things that we did for this company was we leveraged several different Behavioral Science principles, but the key Behavioral Science principle that we used was this idea called regret lottery. So regret lottery is similar to a traditional Lottery that everybody's familiar with, but there's an element of regret or lost tied into it. And the way it works is that we would, as an example in this example, the audience was very tech oriented and so we decided to basically give away a Tesla to anybody that participated in our lottery. But the way we designed it with Regret was that you would have to enter the lottery and then at the one year mark at VM World, big key event for them, we would announce the winners, but if we picked your name and you had not completed a sales demo with their sales team, we'd be like, Joe, so sorry you were this close to winning a Tesla and you didn't do it your sales demo, so we have to give it to someone else. And so that's how we introduced kind of that element of regret. And, and the other elements of Behavioral Science that we used was that while people were at the event, coming up to the booths or participating in the talks that we had, we gave them time sensitive codes that they could enter on their mobile phone to fill in and request a demo with the sales team. And so we kind of took, took advantage of kind of time scarcity that this is only valid at the event. We got people to commit to a sales demo that happens at some point in the future. So that's how we tied hot state at the event, future state, I need to schedule a demo. And then we brought it all back together where they could not win, they would just be entered into the lottery, but they know that they couldn't win until the sales team verified that they'd actually completed a demo. So we kind of did all of that to get people sort of into the sales conversations. It ended up being their most successful marketing campaign to date. They actually wanna Stevie Award for it. So we were really excited to see that. And I believe that generated about like 6,000 leads in that year from the event. And obviously for them, giving away a Tesla was minimal compared to the millions of dollars of additional revenue that it generated.

- Yeah, that's a, it's a great example. It's also interesting how you turn that regrets factor a little bit on its head because in many ways when you see something like that, they tell you you get a gift cards or whatever, you get the reward, but you need to schedule. But in this case you're saying, well, it doesn't matter what you do, but at the end of the day when you call you and you're the one that you're so close to getting the keys to the Tesla, but oopsie, like we, we find in the CRM that you didn't take a demo, then we're not gonna give you those keys. So it's you just showing them the full picture of what's gonna happen at the end. And I think that's-

- And think about all the money that gets spent on like trinkets that everybody goes and gets and there's not differentiated. We're pouring all of that money into like one big grand prize so you can have that lottery effect. That's also memorable, et cetera. So there's, there's a lot of elements in there that hopefully your audience can take away from.

- Awesome, great. So, we talk about examples, so let's shift gears a little bit to another area that's important. And actually just in the episode preceding this one, episode 19, I was hosting another friend of mine who is experiencing customer size, customer success, customer delight and we were talking about the Bowtie effect on revenue by retaining your customers and keeping them happy. So it's, you keep getting more and more recurring revenue. So it's very timely because it's a great segue from that conversation into here. So how can Behavioral Science increase customer retention? How can it help with that area?

- Yeah, absolutely. So I think another area, and this is another client that we worked with, so quick background on them, they were a pretty late stage educational technology software company. And so they worked with like IT, school districts, et cetera, and they didn't have an adoption problem. So they were getting people to adopt their solution. They had a retention problem. So when renewals would come in, they were seeing a lot of churn. And so they came to us, seeking our help and okay, how do we reduce our churn? And one of the first things that we did in going out there and talking to folks and doing some of our interviews, and also just looking at like what was the messaging, the marketing messages, the customer support messages that were going out to folks. We noticed a theme of Behavioral Science, we have a elaborate word for it called Cognitive Fluency. In marketing, we call it Keep It Simple, Stupid. So we noticed that they were really, it was really difficult to just understand what their solution does and how to use it. And so we had this idea that like, oh, maybe they have this Cognitive Fluency problem where they're just not explaining what they do well. And so people end up not knowing how to use their solution well and therefore don't renew it. So that was one idea that had, when we talked to people, another theme emerged, which was like we were noticing these IT school district people talk about how they might copy what another school district is doing. And so to us in Behavioral Science world, that's called Social Proof, which is this idea that as humans, it's pretty well known in marketing we replicate, when we don't know what to do, we copy what somebody else is doing. And so that was another thing that we wanted to understand, like what's the effect of that. Another principle that we wanted to understand it is called the Endowment Effect. The Endowment Effect basically means that as humans we have this tendency to value things that we already feel ownership to as higher than those that we don't. So this is why we have a really hard time selling our cars and our homes, or we stay in marriages that are not working for us because of this kind of Endowment Effect. And so we knew that these people had already invested in these software solutions. So they'd taken everything that we know in a B2B environment to like deploy these solutions and yet they weren't getting everything that they needed out of it. And the other thing that we wanted to test, this came from their executive team, which was that they've largely been very successful using messaging that was like very aspirational in nature. And they wanted to see if that would have an effect. And as Behavioral Scientists, the good thing about this is that because we run experiments and we use data to understand what works and what doesn't work, there's no bias here. We're like, okay, if you have an idea, even if it's not a Behavioral Science based idea, we'll test it and see if it works. So in this scenario, because we were trying to increase retention with customers, we ended up using their existing customer list as opposed to like going on LinkedIn and targeting net new prospects. We used their existing customer list and we ran a series of email tests testing everything between these four different hypotheses that we had across different metrics and measures and so forth to try to see, okay, which frame works best and what kind of language do we use? Do you use endowment language use social proof? Do we use kind of Cognitive Fluency? And frankly we were expecting the Social Proof to win because we thought that looking at your peers in that industry is gonna be a high level of motivation. And interesting enough, the Endowment Effect across all the metrics that we measured work the best. And so when we knew that that was working, we then went back into their sales team, their customer service team, their marketing team, and we basically just trained everyone on how do you use Endowment Effect and how you do your scripts, your messages, your landing pages and so forth.

- Okay, great, great, great example. I mean, educational technology is very close to my heart. I used to work in language learning for software company that was doing language learning for many years. So the motivation effect is important there. Everyone starts with a great idea that they're gonna learn the language typically around New Year's resolutions and things like that. And then there's this interesting thing that happens on the third or the fourth week where you get 90% drop off. So, I hear you. I understand what you mean. So let's talk a little bit about what your company specifically does. So, I'm sure you know in general you've already shared some examples that's kind of hinted what could be done there. But what challenges do you solve as a company for your B2B clients through Behavioral Science? And how does the process work in general? Like what can they expect in terms of outcomes when they work with you? Just lemme know a little bit about this.

- Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I would say thematically we're helping clients in like two buckets of needs. One bucket is what we call the de-risk bucket. So, which is like, hey, I'm about to launch a website, a new positioning, I'm going after a new audience, launching a new product and I haven't done the research to really understand how to motivate this audience or make sure that the website can convert and I need your help. So that's like one bucket, we call it the de-risk bucket. The other is what we call the optimization bucket, which is like, as an example, I have these events, I'm spending a ton of money here, I have a website that's not generating leads. I have efforts I'm already doing that's not getting me the results that I need and we're stuck and we need kind of help unlocking what's happening. So I would say those are the two general buckets that we work in. And then the type of engagement that we do largely ends up being a function of what the company needs. And so I would say with a lot of our like say B2B SaaS clients like you know, bill.com as a client, et cetera, where they have thousands and thousands of users, we are working with them on more annual retainer basis where on an ongoing basis we are running research with different teams to like help them uncover things about their users so they can make their marketing product efforts more effective. And then on the other side is where we have more of like our B2B enterprise clients where they have long sales cycles, et cetera. And it might be that they have a low number of actual users, like hundreds of users. And we might come in and just do sort of onetime research or one-time project for example, like the educational technology company I was talking about where we come in, we solve a problem and we go away or we come back if there's another problem to be solved. So those are typically project based or retainer based are the two primary ways that we work with clients. One thing that is worth mentioning is that we, because we know that in the end, even our clients are more like Homer Simpson, we recognize that what we don't wanna do is give our clients a bunch of research insights in a deck and then let them be like, okay, how in the world do I include the Endowment Effect? And so we have our own creative team or designers, copywriters, et cetera, that are already trained in Behavioral Science and we really help close the gap and connect the dots for our clients of like, oh, okay, this is how you change the landing page now, this is how you change the ad, the messages, this is how we design the new campaigns or a lot of times we're also kind of training their existing teams as well too. So that's an important differentiator of like, not only do we do the research, but we connect it to that creative execution for clients.

- Great. And I know you mentioned that you may have a special offer for folks that are watching or listening to this podcast, so obviously there's gonna be more information about this on the page for this episode, observations of info and we're displaying some of that here as a link for people to follow up. But do you want to mention this very quickly?

- Yeah, absolutely. So I think we've got two offers for your audience. One is basically a white paper download that we have, which is our ultimate guide for B2B on how to use Behavioral Science with clear examples of the principles and then how it's deployed for different situations. So that is completely free for everybody to download and hopefully use. And then we also have a offer for I believe five complimentary Behavioral Science consults with our team. And this is for folks that would come in, talk about a specific challenge that they have to our team and hopefully get some advice and ideas around that.

- Perfect, thanks for sharing this with the audience here. And again, everyone that's interested to learn more, they can go to the website Cerebrations.info and find out more there. Just to wrap things up, it's been a great conversation and one of the things that I always aim to get out of each episode is some sort of, a few takeovers, sorry, a few takeaways that people can retain because I mean we can listen to a lot of great conversations and if we don't remember what happened after that, what's the point of that? So I like to say if folks who watch us today or listen to this podcast today have a conversation about Behavioral Science six months from now and they want to relate to something that they heard here, what will be the two, three things that you'll provide as final words of advice, final takeaways?

- Absolutely. So I think one thing that I hopefully hope that they will remember is the audience that they're dealing with Spock or Homer Simpson. And I'd really like them to consider that as intelligent as C-level executives that they might be dealing with in a B2B, that there is a Homer Simpson in all of us. And to not rely on just assuming that if they give people more content and more information without understanding their emotional motivators, that they're gonna be as successful. So I think that's hopefully one, a big takeaway that I would make sure that they take home with them. I think the other takeaway that I would really make sure that they consider is the importance of going out there and talking to their users and not making assumptions about them so that we really start understanding what is motivating the audience. And then the third takeaway I would recommend is definitely downloading the white paper that we are sharing because in that white paper we are sharing some of the principles that we've seen work the best in B2B environments. So I think it's worth them checking that out and seeing how they can leverage some of those principles in their everyday work.

- Great, sounds like a great call to action for everyone. I'll personally go and download the white paper to find out more about it. So thanks for sharing that and thanks for your time today, Shirin. It was a pleasure hosting you on this podcast episode. Appreciate all the examples you provided and I hope that we may have another one in the future where we talk about another topic. Thank you very much.

- Absolutely, thank you so much, Amil, for having me. I really enjoyed it and excited to hopefully have another chat with you.

- All right, thanks. Thank you, bye bye.