- Hello, friends. Thanks for joining me for another episode of the Cerebrations Podcast. In the last episode, Olivia Lockwood and I touched on the topic of stress, burnouts, and the Quiet Quitting trend, but mostly from a behavioral/leadership perspective.

- Today, I'm bringing a guest to talk in more depth about spotting stress and preventing burnout, both at the personal and at the team level.

- My guest's name is Steph Newton. She's based in the UK and is a fellow alum of my MBA program INSEAD. After experiencing stress and burnout in past work environments, Steph and a few co-founders are now focusing on a startup that aims to provide tools for managers to prevent and alleviate stress. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome on my virtual stage, my next episode guest Steph Newton.

- Hi Steph. How are you?

- I'm good. Thank you. Happy to be here.

- Yeah. Great. Thanks for joining me on the podcast episode. I really appreciate you doing that. I know that we have a time difference, so I appreciate being able to coordinate that part as well. One thing I do for my podcasts is I always start with some sort of a little joke or an icebreaker if you will, to get people situated and for the listeners and the watchers of this podcast to understand a little bit more about the personality of the person that I've invited to the podcast. And in the past, I've tried a few icebreakers, but for this one, I've decided to choose a slide to different one. And the reason why I wanna do a different one is there are actually two reasons. One is I know that you have in your background having worked for Spotify. And on the other hand, you told me that you're an avid podcast fan. You like to listen to podcasts. So let's start with that. What are your three favorite work related podcasts?

- First of all, yes, thanks. Thanks so much for having me. I do love podcasts. Interestingly, I actually was not a huge podcast fan before I worked for Spotify, but I discovered so many I loved while working there. So I think my top three, so my favorite work related one of all time has to be How I Built This with Guy Raz. He probably lots of people listening are familiar with it, but he interviews entrepreneurs and talks their journey. And that's been fascinating for me. There's so many ones I love in there. Probably my first be is actually a great one. Then there's Acquired, which is a much more in depth podcast. Some of the episodes are over two hours, but they go into detail about businesses. They did a great episode on Peloton recently, which I'd highly recommend. And then my third one would probably be Work Life with Adam Grant, the organizational psychologist. He just talks about lots of different ways to make your working life better and your work environment better. So those three are probably my favorites.

- Great. Well, thanks for sharing that. And I also used to be a huge fan of podcasts when I used to commute to work. At one point I had a pretty long commute that typically took me 30 to 45 minutes of driving. So it was perfect to just, you know, start the podcast. And by the time I go home or, you know, if I'm driving to work, by the time I reach my destination, I'll be done with that. So that was great. I unfortunately now work from home most of the time. So except for doing my own podcast, I haven't really listened to a lot of podcasts. Well, I should probably get started again. So let me ask you one more question, because again, you mentioned Spotify, so, you know, based on your experience at Spotify and the fact that you listen to so many, what makes a podcast good? What are the main attributes?

- A very good question. I mean, you know, I don't actually think that there's a winning formula for podcast necessarily. There's so, so many different podcasts out there. And actually some of the ones that are most popular or I saw being most popular as Spotify were not ones that I personally related to. I think a couple of things, first of all, there's so much great content out there that it really the success in the next kind of two, three years with podcast is gonna be figuring out discoverability of them. And I think one of the platforms will definitely do that well, hopefully it'll be Spotify. But really thinking about how do you help people discover the content they want to listen to in the same way that that's happening on the music side at the moment. I think personally for me, I kind of group my podcast into three different buckets. One, which is like your everyday news podcast. Those are ones which I want to be quite succinct, informative. I have to like the sound of the voice of the person that's doing them. My favorite there is probably the Daily, which is one of the most popular podcasts, I think anyway. And then there's the kind of more series podcasts where there's a theme and lots of different episodes. So trying to keep people engaged with each episode is super important there. And then there are those like investigative podcasts that for me have to be kind of six to eight episodes long, otherwise people sort of drop off and have like a really strong story arc from beginning to end. I think the BBC World series does some brilliant investigative series. Probably my favorite one actually is the Lazarus Heist, which is about cyber crime in North Korea. So highly recommend listening to that one if you haven't. But yeah, I don't think there is a winning formula as the answer, sadly. It's just about what works best for you as a listener.

- Great. Well, thanks. I guess for me, what I heard from you is the story is important at the end of the day. Right, so especially the serialized podcast, like everything else, you have to have a good narrative and hooks from one episode to another, so people want to stay.

- Yeah. And I think, yeah, and I think really just understanding your listeners and like your audience for your podcast and what they want to hear, cause there's some podcasts that appeal to a huge group of users and there's others that go down a much more niche route to getting feedback from your listeners and adapting your content based on that is also really important.

- Great, great. Well, all right. Thank you. So let me, I mean, the topic for today is avoiding team stress and burnouts. We've touched a little bit on some of the topics here in my previous episode, but there we were talking more from leadership perspective. And I think now we can focus a little bit more from a coaching perspective as an executive. But one question that I'm sure everyone has on their mind is, you know, what do you do now? Like how did you get involved with this topic? And I'm gonna put here also a quick call to action for everyone who's interested. There's always to find out more about you and find any links to what you do or any references you may make here, they can all go to Cerebrations.info and find that information there, also find out information about other episodes and other guests. But again, so very quickly as a 30 second elevator pitch, what do you do now?

- So, yeah, I co-founded a startup earlier this year with two colleagues from my time working at Uber, Jamie and Zoe. And we're on a mission to prevent workplace burnout with software. But I guess just to back up before that, I've worked and Zoe and Jamie have as well in corporates, startups and scale ups as well. So have had quite a broad view of lots of different organizational cultures and ultimately the passion for setting up a startup in this area came from our shared experience during our time at Uber, where we did witness a culture that did drive a lot of burnout behaviors. So it was a problem that we saw there and one where we felt as managers and leaders, we didn't have the right tools in place to actually prevent it within our teams and for ourselves. So that was what led to us building Ambr and I know we'll talk a little bit more about that later.

- Interesting. Yes. Thank you for mentioning Ambr, I'll definitely come back to that in one of my later questions. But thanks for providing that context right now in the beginning, so that everyone understands how you're approaching the questions I'm gonna ask you. So let's start with like a foundational question, if you will. Something that I think not everyone understands equally well. What is the difference between normal stress and burnout?

- Yeah, I think first of all, actually I put to probably just caveat that I know, I just explained my background briefly, but I don't have any sort of medical background. So any kind of answers I give here on this are purely based on my own research from user interviews and the internet. So yeah, don't assume that I'm a doctor or anything.

- Oh, no. Yeah. Thanks for providing the caveat, but yeah, this is a business oriented podcast, not a medical podcast, so yeah.

- So I think for me, you know, like normal stress is something that is going to occur in any job and also outside of the workplace as well, right? It's often a consequence of liking what you do, being motivated, and we all have different ways to manage our individual stress levels. Burnout is on the other end, the extreme end of the stress spectrum. It's defined by the World Health Organization as chronic workplace stress. And I think the two words that are really important there are chronic and workplace. So really on the chronic side, this is stress that has been unmanaged for a long time to the point that it's manifested itself in physiological and emotional symptoms. Those can appear differently for different people, but there's kind of three buckets of symptoms, which the WHO talk about, which is this feeling of kind of depletion or exhaustion in your job, feelings of negativity and cynicism, again, in relation to your job and your workplace, and really just feeling unproductive, not able to be effective in your work as well. So I think those are kind of three symptom buckets, which are important to remember. And then actually the other word there, occupational in the definition is really important as well. To remember that really, when we talk about burnout, it's in relation to your work environment, not in relation to your personal environment. That doesn't mean that things that are going on in your personal environment might influence like when or when not you actually display burnout symptoms, but like the root causes of it lie in the workplace. Yeah.

- Okay. Well, you started going down a little bit of path of the symptoms that you should look out for. So that leads very well into my question here. How do you know you're experiencing burnouts? What are the things that you should be looking out for?

- I think this is a really interesting question because we've done a lot of user interviews with people that have experienced burnout. I've also been close to burnout in the past as well. And I guess, unfortunately in some ways, a lot of people don't realize that they've experienced burnout until they have the benefit of hindsight. So it's really, so many people we spoke to said, you know, it's only been in the last year that I realized that three years ago, I actually had a period of burnout in my job. And so if you've experienced it before, it's then quite easy to know what the certain symptoms and warning signs are for you particularly. But that's not very helpful if you haven't experienced burnout before and you want to know how to make sure not to get it. I think the main thing is really understanding yourself very well, especially your like physiological health. Thinking about changes in your behavior over time. So some of the early indicators are kind of seeming really irritated. Something that probably your partner or your friends, or even your colleagues might notice, and not ignoring those signs. Yeah, and just really being in touch with how you are feeling. Everyone does know kind of what stress feels like, but if it is getting to that point where you are also feeling one of those symptom buckets I mentioned before, like suddenly very cynical about your work where you were previously motivated, I think that's where you have to take a step back and think about whether your work environment is an unhealthy place for you to be. I think for me personally, and again, I probably do fall into the bucket of really only noticing it with hindsight, but for me it was actually going from caring a lot about my job to suddenly becoming a bit jaded and not actually caring if I didn't reply to every email or if I didn't complete something before a deadline. And that's just not a head space that I'd ever been in before. And actually kind of being aware of those three buckets of symptoms now and thinking back, I'm like, oh, I think it was probably a clear sign when something switched off of me and I just kind of didn't care as much each morning at work.

- Yeah, interesting. I mean, I think all of us can remember at least a few times during our careers where we would feel like you said all of a sudden, not so motivated and not so excited to complete every single task that comes to our desk. And I think that's, it's a good reminder that at that point, maybe you should start thinking what exactly has changed in your environment. But a question to related to symptoms. I mean, one thing I've always been thinking about as well is, especially for people that are more creative, is that also associated with when you start feeling like you're have a creative block where you feel like you've exhausted all your ideas and there's nothing you can do to contribute more with?

- I think it can, I think it depends. I don't think that having a creative block is always a symptom that you might be burnt out. You know, perhaps you do just have a creative block and you need to think about new ways to innovate and ideate, and you need to brainstorm more with your colleagues. So I think it really depends on what the other symptoms are of how you're feeling during that time. As I said, I think in some situations having that creative block feeling, if it's combined with other symptoms of stress, perhaps that is a sign of burnout, but probably has to be taken on a case by case basis, based on what else is happening in your environment.

- Okay. So we talked about how to detect that there may be a problem. What steps can everyone take to protect themselves from burnout?

- Yeah. I think protecting yourself from burnout, so answering this again on like an individual level, this is going back to what I was saying before, really about first of all, just being very in touch with your own moods, how you are feeling with respect to work. And then it's about the things that we talk about all the time with respect to managing stress. So whether that's exercise and diet, the little rituals that you need to do throughout the day. It's really important to keep those going and figuring out what works for you. And I think the most important thing is, and we are all guilty of this a lot of the time, is that when you do enter those periods of high stress, you quickly default to, oh, but I don't have time to do that. So I think for me for example, I know that exercise is probably my number one thing that actually helps me manage stress levels. It helps me sleep better when I've exercised, actually helps me be more productive at work, but I often fall into a state, and I have done this in the past where I'm really busy with meetings. I've got so much work to do that I'll just say, oh, well, I don't have time to exercise this morning. And I fall into this cycle, which is actually for me, much more unhealthy. And it's reminding myself, and again, whatever that thing is for you, whether it's exercise or something else, it's reminding myself that you need to make time for those things, because really that hour that you've taken out of your workday to do the thing that helps you manage stress is gonna be so much more beneficial for you in the long run. So I think it's really thinking about what are those things for you that you can't drop, even when you're really busy, and what are really important to prioritize still. And managing stress before it escalates into the kind of chronic levels that will then need to burnout. But I would emphasize that you can, yes, take these kind of steps to protect yourself from feeling excessively stressed and ultimately potentially burnout. But it's your environment really that is gonna drive your risk of burnout, not the kind of individual steps that you take to try and protect yourself against it.

- Okay. That's interesting. I mean, I don't want to throw a curve ball with you here, but you mentioned that sometimes because you know that there are certain things that help with stress, but at the same time, you're stressed and you're busy and you don't have the time for those. I almost feel like you can fall into this vicious circle where you're stressing that you're not doing the things that will distress you. So I don't know if you have a remedy for that, but I sometimes feel like this. I mean, you mentioned exercise and I even signed up for a personal trainer. So that there's someone that is gonna guilt me for not doing it. But that's stressing me out now because I know I have an appointment, but I have to squeeze that appointment in between everything else that's going on. So how do you feel about it?

- Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's very easy to say what we should be doing and much harder to have the discipline to implement it. And I've definitely felt the same of being stressed about other commitments I've made outside of work. But I think that ultimately, ultimately actually, I've also find it's linked to productivity for me, because a lot of the excuses I might tell myself when I have gone through those periods, say of not exercising, I'll say I don't have time for it, but then I'll be unproductive at another point in the day. So probably if I counted out all the hours I was unproductive, I could have fitted in like two trips to the gym in that time. So it's also about really optimizing how productive you are with the hours that you have in the day. But yeah, I mean, it's easier, easier said than done. I know. It's definitely a discipline that we all have to get into.

- Yeah, yeah. It is hard, but a very important one. So I mean, obviously the topic is for us here at the podcast and all the episodes that I record is how to be a better executive. How to be a better manager or leader or coach. So we talked about a little bit, you know, about on the personal level, what you can do about stress and burnout. What can you do as a company executive? What is the role that you can play in preventing team stress and burnout? So not just your own personal stress, but the stress levels and burnout, potential burnout for your team members.

- Hmm. Yeah, this is such a big question. I could probably talk about it for a long time. So please feel free to interrupt me if I'm monologuing. But so I mean the short answer is so much company executives, and in fact, managers and leaders at all levels plays such a critical role here in creating a workplace where burnout risk is minimized. I think to start off, it's worth talking a little bit about the research around burnout and what the root causes of burnout are. One of the things that myself and my two co-founders go back to a lot is a piece of research, a famous piece of research, which is published by someone called Christina Maslak, hope I've said her surname correctly, but she talks about there being six root causes of burnout in the workplace. The first of those is unmanageable workload, probably doesn't really need to be explained. Although I think the one piece I would add here from personal experience is that this isn't just about having too much work. It's also about having like unproductive work. So, you know, back to back meetings or week, which perhaps lots of people don't actually need to be in. Replying to emails and taking twice as long to do it because you're exhausted throughout the day. So it's not just the amount of work, it's also the levels of productivity. The second one is lack of control. So the feeling that you don't have autonomy in your job, and I think this really goes back to how at the top level, how roles are scoped and all, and how you define the responsibilities. The third one is around lack of reward and recognition in the workplace and that of course goes back to things like compensation structures, but also smaller things like how people are rewarded for small deliverables and how you integrate that into your governance and team meeting structures. Unfairness. So whether people feel, individual employees feel fairly treated as it relates to certain things. Again, a lot of that kind of comes down to transparency of communication, I think. Ultimately I think if as leaders you are transparent in the ways you communicate, then fairness usually follows, as long as there's the right policies and procedures in place. The fifth one is kind of breakdown of community and poor team relationships. And that might be between managers and their direct reports. It could be between employees. It could be between different functions. So lots of different ways that you can interpret that one. And then finally values mismatch. So the feeling as an employee, that your, ultimately your values don't match up with those of the leaders of the firm or the mission of the firm. I think that one's, I mean the hardest one to tackle because, you know, ultimately there might always be a mismatch and maybe some people, you know, should just move on from their company. That's okay as well. But lots of those other ones I mentioned, so, you know, workload, lack of reward and recognition, poor relationships, there's really clear ways that I think those can be tackled and need to be thought about. So I think, you know, just explaining those root causes to start with, and then thinking about how leaders and managers can integrate those factors. So I think, really thinking about how does your org measure up against each of those now? There's some ways to understand that using things like poll surveys, engagement surveys, some of those factors will be included in there. I think the other thing that's key alongside those factors is really building environments where employees feel comfortable about being vulnerable. That is so, so important. And I think thinking about what is vulnerability. One of the people I interviewed recently was an old colleague of mine for also from my time at Uber. And I think he described it really well. Cause he said that vulnerability to him within the workplace is kind of two things. The first is being able to be open when you feel stressed and not feel judged or that that's any sign of weakness because it's not. And the second is really being able to share with your team and your manager when you can't do something or when something's not clear to you. And those things together are real kind of tangible sign of whether someone's actually able to be vulnerable. And I think then thinking about as a leader and an executive, how can you build a culture via which it's okay for people to be vulnerable. Ultimately, vulnerability really comes from the top. So if at your most senior C-suite level, you are thinking about how can you be vulnerable, maybe it's in a company, all hands meeting. But even with your direct reports, like what are the times when you share? And you know, of course you're not gonna share everything, but where you share concerns about real challenges that you are having, and you also kind of expose your team to your identity outside of work a bit. I think that's important. I mean, of course everyone's gonna share different levels of information about their personal life. That's up to them, but creating and showing that you do have an identity outside of work is really important as well. And I think the best leaders that I've interacted with have all managed to do that really well. Again, I spoke to someone recently as part of our interviews who had a senior leadership role at Uber as well. And she used to do something every week where she would just send an email out to her team, you know, talking about what's top of mind. But as part of that, she would always, she had a standing section where she would purposely share something that basically did open up, open her up to the team and make her feel vulnerable, like something that was top of mind and she didn't know how to solve yet. And she said that that actually went a huge way for other people to then feel open about sharing something themselves. So there's lots of little practices and habits that you can build into your day and your team management style as leaders that help your team feel okay about opening up. And then that's really the first step. I think that then helps you think about those six factors that I mentioned before as well.

- It's interesting, you mentioned opening up and sharing a little bit of yourself outside of your work personality or your work identity. And I, you know, I completely subscribe to that school of thought. I actually maybe consciously or subconsciously, but I've always tried to do that in my relationships at work at different organizations, different levels. But I think that as we moved more to a remote environment and virtual environment, it's become a little more difficult to do that. Maybe because it's more artificial. Like it just, it feels forced just, hey I've gotta talk a little bit about myself now, versus just something that's comes out of the blue unexpectedly and more naturally when it happens in the office in person, person to person relationships. I mean, you may just be sitting and talking to someone in a business setting and your phone rings and you realize that something's going on with your kid or your house or whatever. So, and then people know that there is a life outside of work. But in virtual it doesn't happen that much. So I don't know if you agree with me on that, but is that, I mean, let's talk a little bit about this new trend, the Quiet Quitting that everyone is talking about. Is that something that's driving more of the Quiet Quitting trend? How does everything we talked about so far relate to that trend?

- Yeah. So yeah, first of all, actually I'll talk about Quiet Quitting, but I think to your point, I completely agree that the move to hybrid and remote has made it so difficult to have those natural, like water cooler conversations or coffee chats or what you wanna call them, the casual conversations in the office that feel very natural. And I agree that it's, I think if you think take, so kind of more of a cynical view, a lot of the practices and rituals that you might try and implement in a hybrid remote structure can feel forced. However, I actually think that a lot of the, I think back for example, just to the peak pandemic and working fully remotely in a team, and one of the things that we used to do was every Friday for half an hour, someone in the team would have to come up with a fun game or something. I'm sure lots of people did something similar. And yes, on the one hand, if you view that cynically, it's kind of forced social interaction, but if you are willing to be open minded about that kind of thing, you often can still have a great time. And you actually realize afterwards that you have strengthened your relationship with your team, even though your preferred method might have been to go over to someone's desk and have a casual conversation. So I think it's actually important to have some sort of like forced habits that make you still think about how to connect outside of work with your team, if you're working remotely. I think ultimately they're still beneficial. Moving on to Quiet Quitting there and like, and the relationship between everything we've talked about and Quiet Quitting. First of all, I will say that I thought it was just very funny to see, yeah another trend that starts off on TikTok, which I guess is very 2022 and very Gen Z. You know, I think Quiet Quitting itself is a real buzzword, which led to huge amounts of media attention. But I think ultimately what it's describing, you know, this idea of not going above and beyond in your role, of kind of switching off in your job when you are feeling a bit unmotivated. I don't think that that's anything new to the generation now. I think that's really just something that's been around for a long time. There just probably wasn't a specific word for it before. I think thinking about it in relation to burnout is interesting because I guess for two reasons, I think first of all, I don't think there's necessarily a clear link between Quiet Quitting and burnout. I think that sometimes Quiet Quitting is a way of, you know, managing burnout risk if you feel like you're very stressed, maybe your reaction might be to be like, I just need to step back. I can't give as much to my job anymore, but I also think that not going above and beyond or not wanting to give more to your job, that might just be for other reasons, maybe you don't feel a lack of purpose in your role. Maybe you're just not very engaged. You might not be on the way to burnout. So I think, yeah, there's not necessarily a strong link between them. I think the one positive thing to come out of the media attention around Quiet Quitting, or the one positive angle I think that employers should take from it is really just the chance to think about whether they as employers and, you know, executives as well are creating the kind of cultures where people don't want to Quiet Quit. Because ultimately like if you're thinking about it, you know, just in terms of output and costs, if you create an environment where people want to go above and beyond, you are really just maximizing output. And that's, you know, that's kind of what everyone wants to wants to strive towards. So I think, yeah, it's really just thinking about how can you create that environment at work. But yeah, I'm sure we won't see the end of the articles about Quiet Quitting for a while. Yeah.

- Yeah, I mean like everything else that is like a buzzword, obviously the media picks it up and it becomes the trend itself. It has its own life. And we should be aware of that between that and the real factors that may be going on. But I just wanted to cover it here for a second, just to make sure that for everyone listening to what we've discussed so far, they're able to connect the dots and see where there may be a relation and where there may be just too much hype. So thanks for going down that route. And finally, I mean, I promised in the beginning you started talking about Ambr and your new adventure and what you're trying to do there with your co-founder, so let's go back to that. Let's talk a little bit about your company Ambr and you know, the tools that you're developing and in general, what can tools like that do to help with stress and burnout?

- Yeah, so I mentioned it very brief at the beginning, but really we are building Ambr to prevent burnout by targeting the root causes of burnout, rather than just managing the symptoms of burnout and stress. So those six root causes that I mentioned earlier from the research, and there's a couple in particular, we think that a solution like Ambr can really, really target. Workloads one of them, poor relationships is another, lack of recognition. But we really wanna think about what can companies do to focus on those root causes. And that's why we think we're very different from other solutions in the market that focus on things like employee perks, meditation, coaching, and therapy. For sure all of those solutions have a purpose and a value, but specifically when we're talking about burnout, because we do believe it has these specific root causes that stem from the organization in the workload. We think there needs to be a targeted solution for it. And the way we're thinking about it, Ambr ultimately our vision is really to use data collection and methods like machine learning to diagnose the burnout risk for an organization and to inform leaders about the different risk factors and where they need to take action. And then we want to build integrations into common workplace tools. So things like Google Suite, Slack, Microsoft Teams, and integrations that really nudge employees and managers away from behaviors that might be burnout driving. And we want these to fit seamlessly into your day to day, because I think one of the other criticisms of lots of third party software tools is that there are these standalone platforms that, you know, people are already saturated with the amount of tools they use at work. So it's important for us to build something that isn't standalone and that does integrate into your day to day. And one of the things that we're actually focused on to start with, you know, we know that there's no magical solution to preventing burnout, because for probably it would be out there already. Instead we think about this as lots of different product features that holistically prevent burnout. So the root cause that we're actually looking at at the moment is really around the poor relationships and lack of community, and how we can actually use communication tools like Slack and Teams and how we can integrate into them to encourage teams to build vulnerability and to build trust. So that's the app that we're focused on at the moment. But yeah, we're really excited. I think actually the burnout prevention space, so I'm not talking about managing the symptoms of burnout, but the prevention space itself is actually very nascent. You know, there's a couple of startups with similar kind of visions to ours, not exactly the same, but there's lots happening in this space. And I think it's gonna be interesting to see how it develops over time. And I think the time is right, given this move to hybrid and remote as well, which is making it a lot harder for managers and leaders to really understand how their teams are doing in the same way that they could when we were in a in person office environment. So I think we obviously believe that it's the right time for software like this. So yeah, really excited to just see how things progress in the next, in the coming months.

- Great, well, thanks for sharing about Ambr. That's very interesting. Again, I'll remind everyone that if our audience here is interested in learning more about Ambr, we have a link to that in the episode description for this episode on survey Cerebrations.info. So everyone can go there and find out more. Just one final question about Ambr. Why is it called Ambr? Can you share a little bit about that?

- Yeah, yeah, of course. Actually, if I'm sure lots of people, everyone that's has a business has had this, but coming up with a name is surprisingly hard sometimes. But I think we came, we landed on Ambr, it's actually got kind of a double meaning. The first is we were thinking about traffic light. So like red, amber, green. And amber being kind of one before red and also one before green, depending on which way, which is this idea of like it being a warning. And a warning to organizations to what they need to change. So that's the first meaning. The second is actually going back to amber as a stone. It, like in nature, like the naturally occurring form of amber, which can sometimes be interpreted as being about energy and like being rejuvenated. So also this idea of thinking about yeah, what using Ambr can do to improve your work life as well. Yeah.

- Great. Well, interesting. All right, well, thanks for sharing all this information and answering all my questions, Steph. I appreciate your time today. I hope that the audience also had an interesting experience with us today and learned some new things about stress management and spotting early symptoms of that and preventing their teams from burning out. Again, thank you very much. And I appreciate your time today.

- Thanks so much for having me. It's been great to chat.

- Yeah. Thank you. Bye-bye.