- Hello and thanks for watching yet another one of the Cerebrations Podcast episodes. By now, you may already have noticed that the intent for this podcast is to organize the topics we discuss across three main buckets-leadership, coaching, and management.

- Together, those three areas can make executives and their teams very effective and high-performing. I've covered coaching in Episode 1 and discussed the management topic in Episode 2. And now, it's time to shine the light on leadership. For my first discussion on leadership, I've decided to focus on driving behavioral change both for yourself, but also for your team members.

- My guest today is Olivia Lockwood. She's an experienced consultant, facilitator, and a certified life coach with over 30 years' experience, working with organizations to create behavioral change. One of her many clients calls her a goal champion.

- Olivia likes to combine the latest findings from sales effectiveness and neuroscience to help improve thinking. And while I can't claim the countless certifications Olivia has from different talent development and coaching programs, I'm proud to say that she and I do have a few important things in common. Number one, we both work for CEB, now Gartner, even though we never overlapped in our stints at that consulting company. Number two, also like me, Olivia has lived for extended periods in six countries. And finally, number three, she and I have a zest for life and an addiction to fun.

- Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to bring to our virtual stage my next guest, Olivia Lockwood.

- Hi, Olivia, how are you doing today?

- Hey, Emil, I'm well. How are you?

- I'm doing great. Thanks. And thank you for joining me today for my podcast episode. I'm really excited to talk about leading behavioral change.

- Oh, I was just thrilled that you asked me. I love talking about leadership and change, so this is pretty cool. Thanks.

- Great, great. Well, okay. Well, I'm looking forward to our discussion about the topic. But before we get started, one thing that I always ask all my guests is to start things off by breaking the ice a little bit. So one game I like to do is you tell us three things about yourself. And one of these is a lie and the other two are truth. And don't tell us which one is which. Let us guess throughout the show. I'm hoping that the audience will be in suspense trying to figure it out. And we will wait until the end of the show. And I'll get back to the topic, I promise. And we will ask you to tell us which one is the lie.

- Okay.

- So does that sound good?

- That sounds good. Now, are you gonna guess before I tell you?

- Well, I'm gonna guess in my mind. I'm not gonna say it. And I'm gonna wait until the end of the show, so I'll be equally surprised. And also, I wanna keep the suspense for everyone else.

- Okay. Perfect. All right. So two truths and a lie. All right. So my husband and I have lived in six countries for more than a year each. I am the great granddaughter of enslaved people. I have a parent who is a homosexual.

- Okay, well, these are hard to guess. So we will find out. I promise we'll come back to this, so stay tuned. That's an extra incentive even though I think it should be a big incentive for everyone to just find out about leadership and behavioral change today, but that's an extra incentive. So we'll find out more about that soon. In the meantime, let's shift gears a little bit. And just again to get started, to provide some context. So you are a sales consultant and independent contractor, many different things. So tell us a little bit more about yourself. And what's the elevator pitch for your consulting practice? What do you do? How can people get in touch with you if they wanna talk more about leadership and behavioral change?

- Thanks. Okay. So I've been interested in performance, human performance since I was a university student, which is a long time ago. And what my consulting practice focuses on today is helping sales professionals, whether they are individual contributors or leaders generate more revenue. So I am a productivity consultant. What I think my elevator pitches, when someone runs out of ideas on their own, and they need support, they need help from someone else to get new ideas, they call me, whether that's new ideas on account planning, whether that's new ideas on jobs, whether that's moving from sales rep to manager, or sales manager to sales leader, or out of sales, and to sales enablement, or sales ops. So truly, when someone who drives revenue 'cause I've worked with a lot of small business owners as well, but when someone who drives revenue runs out of ideas and they just feel stuck, I'm the person to call.

- Great. All right. Well, thanks, that's very easy for people to remember. So I really appreciate it. By the way, I'm gonna run a text marqee here at the bottom of the screen with a call to action for anyone to learn more about you and watch interviews with other podcast guests at Cerebrations.info. That's the website for this podcast. So I'll have there your contact info and people can get in touch with you that way. I'm very excited to talk about behavioral change today. And actually, I like also one thing you mentioned just a few seconds ago that sales reps, they need sometimes help to move from a sales rep to a sales manager, and then from sales manager to a sales executive. And that's actually partially the whole spiel of my podcast. That's what I'm trying to do, provide people with those tools, or frameworks, or even mindsets that they need to have in order to be better executives, better managers. So I think being able to create behavioral change is very important. And that's why I'm very excited about this topic. So can you tell me a little bit about the purpose of a behavioral change framework? Why do we need to have that? What can we accomplish with that?

- Awesome. So when we think about change, there's that joke, right? Everybody wants change, but nobody wants to change. It's like we want others to change and we stay the same. Kind of a paradox. So the purpose of a behavioral change framework is for a person to know that if they make a change, if they take a different action, it is predictive of a better result. It's like reminding you that if there's two ways to do something, one is more effective or more efficient than the other. So it's putting a relative contrast into your decisions about how to be, how to act.

- Mm-hmm.

- But one of the things I always really like to share, Emil. I am the daughter of two teachers, so I just want you to know sometimes I have a little school mom in me. But I think sometimes, because we use words interchangeably, people mix up. Like a model is something that describes something real. So you think of a model car or a flow chart as a model of a process. Models are the simplest representation of something real, tangible. Then we move to frameworks. Frameworks are representations of abstract concepts. So you think of the five forces. We think of the dial of tension. We think of... Gosh, there's so many. I think of Martin Seligman's ABCDE. And now, I think of the Mind Gym's ABCDE. There's so many frameworks. That's the word I choose because it's the most encompassing.

- I see.

- But then there's this other word that gets thrown in there. And I just wanna share with your listeners and your viewers the word methodology. Methodology means a scalable, repeatable set of steps that have been studied. It's a method that's been studied. So frameworks are very fluid. Methodologies are more prescriptive. So if someone says here's a methodology, it's been researched, and it is the most predictive of success if you change. Frameworks, slightly less predictive. And models don't predict, they represent. So I just think that's why behavioral change frameworks, what their purpose is for you to predict. If I trust this information and I apply this information in my life, I will be better at what I chose to get better at than if I don't. That was a lot of words for a simple answer, I think, Emil.

- No, I think that's actually setting the tone for the conversation very well because it's important to understand these differences. And I think I'm also guilty of what you just said, like interchangeably using some of these terms sometimes, but it's good to keep that in perspective.

- No guilt, no guilt. Just learning, just learning.

- Just learning, learning. Hopefully, retaining it as well. Hopefully, I'm not gonna go back to the old habit, but it's good to know. So now that we've learned why we need the framework for behavioral change, let's clear the air on what could go and what typically goes wrong when people try to do behavioral change. What are some of the pitfalls that we should all be aware of and be careful about?

- Yeah. I don't have the magic wand. I really wish I did. But I think we all know some of the pitfalls. Some of the big pitfalls are a person who doesn't care about us cannot help us change. We have to know. And a lot of people put that into the trust category. So do I. All right. So you have to trust that the person wants to help you. Another pitfall is that what they're suggesting, you don't understand. All right. You just don't know how to do something. And that is a huge pitfall these days. If you think about at the start of the pandemic, when we moved all of these employees to work from home situations, they'd never done that. They didn't have laptops. There was so much frustration, and misunderstanding, and miscommunication, and broken relationships. And I understand that was under a lot of stress, and quick timeframes, and protecting your health. I get it. But leaders, their pitfall is they just expected people to figure it out. That's a pitfall, expecting something of someone else that is a lot harder than you imagine. I think that's the biggest pitfall is having unrealistic expectations. Specifically when you're driving behavioral change, I believe expectations, they need to be explicit. A leader of any kind has to say, "This is exactly what I expect." And then start asking questions. How confident are you to deliver on that expectation? The pitfall is not being clear. And Emil, we can joke about it. We've actually joked about this on the phone. The person is sitting in front of you and you're thinking, "Oh my God, why don't they know this?" But you don't say out loud, "How come you don't know this? Or how much about this do you know?" And help them. We're judging them rather than helping. That I think is the pitfall.

- Great. Yeah, actually, all the pitfalls you mentioned resonate very well with me. One thing that you mentioned about the pandemic, I just experienced it very recently 'cause we hired some new folks on our team. And they are in a very junior role. It's basically one of the first roles that they've ever had. Some of them, it's their first job ever. But some of them have worked in the past, but they've worked only during the pandemic. They graduated in 2020. And they're not in an office still. They're still remote. But I'm kind of in my framework in the beginning, in my frame, my mind, not my framework, but I was thinking, "Oh, they should know this is typical office expectation, or this is a typical practice in the office." I just realized they've never actually lived and worked in a real office. They've never done that. So it's important. And yeah, thanks for bringing it up because it really resonates with me. So now, we're gonna move to the most exciting part for me, I think, because we just gonna talk about the actual frameworks. And you've mentioned them to me in the past. I've heard from you things like COM-B, skill, will, constructive tension, building trust. So I'll ask you to tell me a little bit more about that. But before we do that, I have a joke that I have to share here. I just wanted to kind of bring it up because the first time when you and I spoke a few months ago about COM-B, I heard it from you for the first time, and you said COM-B very casually. And I was just sitting over there and was just thinking, "Wait a minute. Is she talking about the combi that I'm thinking about?" So what I have in mind is that in parts of Europe and definitely from the place where I'm coming from, a combi is a colloquial term for describing a station wagon, or in a estate car, whatever you wanna call it. So you're talking to me about frameworks and then you say, "Well, of course, COM-B." I'm like, "Okay, wait a minute. Do I need to buy a car to this guy, help her accomplish what she's accomplished, what she needs to accomplish? What do I need to do?" So it was kind of funny. And as you were talking to me, I was frantically looking up online to see what this COM-B thing is. So just wanted to bring it up here. But I'm sure that now that I've said this, I picked people's interests. So let's get started. I don't know. Maybe let's get started with COM-B first.

- Perfect. Oh my gosh. And let me apologize for the cross-cultural communication breakdown when we talked about it the first time. Yeah, I grew up calling those station wagons a estate cars, and my husband also, but I've never heard combi until now. So I really appreciate you broadening my vocabulary as well. Excuse, I'm gonna cough. Sorry about that. So yeah, let's start talking about COM-B. So COM-B is an acronym for capability, opportunity, motivation will lead to behavior change. COM-B was... I'm gonna use the word codified. It was sort of put together by Dr. Susan Michie in 2011 in the UK. She built it off of a bunch of different pieces of research, but primarily Ken Blanchard's skill will matrix. So if you have ever taken a psychology course in the United States, you will have heard about this skill will matrix. And most people who've done a management development or a leadership development course in the US will know the language of skill, will, and hill. So when we talk about C for capability, we're talking about the skill. Is the person able to do this? When we talk about O for opportunity, we're talking about hill. Is the environment available for them to try the behavior on? When we talk about the M, the motivation, we're talking about the will. Do they want to do this? And you need enough of all three to create any kind of behavior change. Now, this is gonna sound really silly. And I know how smart you are, so bear with me. But imagine those three attributes, capability, opportunity, or motivation are multiplier. So it's capability times operation times motivation equals behavior change. If you have a zero anywhere, what do you get?

- Zero.

- Zero. Okay. And that's the piece I want people to take away. If someone doesn't want to change, there will be no change. If someone is unable, they just can't do it, right? There will be no change. And if the hurdles, if the hills, if the opportunities are not available in their environment, whether that's their organization, or their school, or their family, they will not change. And I always start with why people don't change because we forget that. And anybody who has children. If a teenager doesn't wanna do something, it ain't happening. You can browbeat, nag, and punish, and reward, and incent him, mm, don't wanna, not happening, right? Think about how many weeks our young teenage boys sometimes go without showers. Oh my goodness. There's no want, so no change.

- Well, I have a toddler, not a teenager, but I can definitely understand that part.

- Right. And you're learning the whole motivation technique of, "Oh, would you like blue socks or red socks?" Hope he chooses one. So that's sort of describing that one is a framework. And the reason I find COM-B or skill, will, hill so helpful is it allows a leader to have a conversation with a direct report, really with anyone to say, "We need this change. Remember that explicit expectation. We need this to happen." The leader describes the expected behavior and then asks those three questions. How able are you to do this? Remember it's not are you able 'cause that's a yes or no. It's how able, that puts it on a spectrum. And it's those spectrums that build the best behavior. Someone says, "Well, I know this much, but I need to know this much." You've got some skill building to do. And that can be training, on the job training, reading, research, classes. The capability is the one that I think most leaders are really good at. I really think they're good at that one. The motivation, getting people to want to do something. I think this is harder. And I think this requires people to be really empathetic, to listen, to be aligned. And when I say aligned, if someone tells you they don't want something, oh, please believe them. Right? I don't wanna work weekends. Believe me. You are not going to get me to work weekends. I mean, that's not true 'cause I work most Sunday nights so I can deal with my Asia team on Monday morning. But come on. If someone tells you what they don't want, recognize it. Of course, if what they don't want is essential to their job, guess what? You do need to part ways. But if what they want is not essential to their job, eliminate it. Just a little, quick tangent, if I may. This is a huge part of what's going on with this whole quiet quitting, right?

- Yeah.

- There are things people don't want. They individually and collectively have shared with leadership, "We don't want these things," and leaders are still, like, "Too bad, that's the way it is." Well, of course, people are going to be less engaged at work. And they're gonna do the minimum. You're not gonna get the discretionary effort that we have expected for, I'm gonna say at least the last 30 years, if not longer. But let's come back. Okay. So we're talking about, you ask somebody, "How able are you to do this? How willing or how much do you wanna do this?" And then the third question, which is huge is, "What gets in the way of you doing this." So you can say, "Well, I would love to do that. However, this person, or this process, or this system, or this structure gets in my way." That's the leader's opportunity to step in and say, "Oh, we can change how you do that reporting," or, "Oh, I can talk to someone so about how you collaborate differently." And that's the opportunity. The leaders get to remove the hills or the hurdles in the organization.

- Mm-hmm.

- So was that helpful? Do you have some questions about that?

- No, it's helpful. And I appreciate also you mentioned the quiet quitting trend, and I was gonna ask you about it. So that's a great kind of a reference to something that most people probably associated right now because it's over the news, and everyone has read about it one way or another. I guess, just to confirm that I understood correctly. When you talk about motivation, you said most of the times, when people tell you that I want something, then believe them, right? They really don't want it. But then in that case, when I think about the three levers or the three dimensions I have, capability, opportunity, motivation. Capability, okay, if they need training, or if they need someone to just tell them how to do it, show them how to do it. I can deal with that, I guess. Motivation, though... I mean, you mentioned opportunity. It's my job as a leader to remove those hills. But motivation, what can I really do if most of the times is what they're telling me is what they really believe in, like they're not gonna change because of that?

- Right. So that's a great question. So it's very specific. So if someone says, "I don't want to work from home, or I don't wanna return to the office," whichever choice they prefer, give them that opportunity if it's possible. This is where you say, "Okay, well we have a requirement. We have a work requirement that everybody's gonna come back to the office," and they're like, "But I don't want to come back to the office." Say, "What's driving that? Is there something I can do to meet you halfway 'cause I don't have the ability as a leader in this organization to say everybody can stay home. But if you're willing to share a bit more, maybe I can help you get part of what you want even if not all of what you want." See, what you're doing is you're looking for compromise. The biggest want that I hear now is employees, they want to feel that their effort matters. It needs to be meaningful. The organization needs to have a mission that they're aligned to. That's where that whole purpose comes in. And so often, in just the fast pace of corporate life, we forget to touch in. We forget to say, "Are you finding you're able to live your personal values to our corporate values? Are you finding ways to be engaged?" It is so rare that I hear a leader proactively ask anyone that. What was the most fun you had at work this month? How could we get more of that for you? I don't hear leaders asking that. And I know I'm generalizing, and I don't want people to leave this and go, "Man, she's a great big scold." But most leaders, if they have that tension between I need performance and productivity versus I need wellbeing will lean performance and productivity. And our wellbeing, they'll take care of it. I mean, it's just sort of how it's been. So if leaders really wanna get better, they need to recognize these common tensions and the fact that they're not going away. We're always gonna be balancing wellbeing and productivity. We're always gonna be balancing constrained resources and too much work, all of that. And I think it's important that you talk to direct reports about that and say, "We can't change it completely, but maybe we can find a different balance."

- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, okay.

- And just in case this is a topic, this sort of working tensions, these contrasts, if this is something that your listeners really like, there's a research from the Mind Gym about the attunement leadership profile. And that's where a lot of this comes.

- Attunement leadership profile.

- Yeah, attunement. And I'll send you the PDF. You can share it with people if you want.

- Great. Yeah, I will definitely add this to the entry for this episode on the website so people can find it. Thank you very much. That was very helpful and insightful, especially the motivational part text. I appreciate it. So there were a few other things we mentioned earlier, constructive tension, building trust. Do you wanna talk about them a little bit very quickly, introduce them as well to the audience?

- I'd love to. If you become a manager or a leader, one of the first things is you're told, "Okay, you're gonna have to find a way to help your employees trust you." And again, I don't have a magic wand, but if I did, every single person in the world would have to read this book. Okay. You've read it. It's the son of Stephen Covey, Stephen M. R. Covey He wrote this book, "The Speed of Trust". And he defines five levels of trust. Okay. So once you understand how to build trust... 13 simple behaviors, I know 13 sounds like a lot, but we do them all every day. But once you know how to build self-trust and then professional trust, then you start thinking about, where did I breach trust or break it down? Where did I build it up and add to my trust account? That's where constructive tension kicks in. Constructive tension is an optimal arousal curve. Sorry for that language. It's really a dial where you have three phases. And if you have constructive tension in a conversation, people are curious, and it's thought-provoking, and there's a two-way dialogue. And those conversations are the most productive. It's where we learn, and it's where trust grows. The three phases are right. There's too little tension. And that's where we're kind of bored. We're kind of, like, "I could go home now." And then in the middle, you have constructive. It's thought-provoking, and I'm really curious and intrigued. And then you have too much tension. I'm irritated. I'm angry. I'm annoyed. You've offended me somehow. What people forget is we all have all three. And we need to watch when we're speaking to someone. Are they bored? Well, then I need to amp it up a little. Am I starting to annoy them? I need to tone it down a little. I love this model. I use it all the time. I call it the Goldilocks model of success. Truly, if you can figure out the other persons 'cause some people in American English, there's this terrible term call passive aggressive. So two little tension in psychology is passive, and just enough tension is assertive, and too much is aggressive. But that term passive aggressive, it just means people who have a very small assertive window. So they go from board to irritated quite quickly 'cause that part that is constructive for them is very narrow. Doesn't mean they don't have it. It just means you have to be a little more careful to get to it. So I guess it's like a touch on trusted constructive tension. I'm not sure if that was what you were looking for or.

- No, I think it was great. I think it's the right level to just create the constructive tension in people's minds. Like you said earlier, right? I mean it's basically some things probably resonate. Some things are probably brand new to people. Maybe a little coming out of left field for them, and maybe wondering what exactly that means. So hopefully, this will provoke folks to check out the book that you showed us earlier and check out the resources that we mentioned we are gonna have on the website, so I appreciate it. One thing that I always strive for as well as part of this podcast and all the episodes we record is to provide some tactical advice at the end of the day, all these things matter from a theoretical standpoint. But sometimes executives, especially on the sales and marketing side, have a hard time translating into action, like what exactly that means to them. So I'm gonna ask you for maybe a few examples of how they can, especially from the sales and marketing standpoint because this is the focus of the podcast, the execs that are in this roles, how can they apply those frameworks, but in real life. But before that, I mean, I just mentioned again, when we spoke a few months ago about COM-B and you mentioned the three dimension and all this stuff. For weeks after that, I was walking around and thinking, creating this 3D models in my head of every single person that I know, especially people at work. What is their situation, like three dimensionally between the CDO and the app? So it's really strange. I mean, once you get started, you can stop thinking about it. But yeah, I mean, when should people go into their repository, maybe read up again to refresh their memory about what we just talked about now and apply these, and maybe when there's a time that they stay away from these frameworks?

- Yeah. So I love the way you said in a three dimensional way because COM-B is usually represented by a triangle with the C, the O, the M, and then the B, right?

- Mm.

- And so I think that the best time for leaders to consider any framework, including these is just before they open their mouths. They're getting ready to meet with someone. And if they say to themselves, "What does success in this next conversation look like from three perspectives for me, for the person I'm talking to, and for the organization?" If they can answer that, they're ready for the conversation. If they cannot answer that, they should kinda walk away. Everything that is related to behavioral change starts with communication. You communicate expectations. You communicate constructive feedback when you want things to change. You communicate confirming feedback when you want them to keep doing what's great. It's all about communication. So I think the models should come into play as you're planning what you're gonna say. I think too many leaders think that what they're saying today is good enough, and it's not, right? We have so much research showing employees leave their frontline supervisor. They don't leave the organization. They leave the person they work for. We have tons of research even in that attunement, a white paper I'll share. We are spending more money than ever on leadership development, and the return on investment is going down. I mean, that is scary for an organization. So for me, it's not all the bills and whistles. It's how effective are your communications, whether you call it coaching, or mentoring, or training? I don't care what you call your communication. But how effective are they at the other person thinking positively about what you said when they walk away?

- Mm-hmm.

- So that's when I would use any framework right before you open your mouth. The other thing that you had mentioned is, when do you go into your toolkit? And I think going back into your toolkit and trying something new as a leader, especially in sales and marketing is when you're not seeing the results you want. Look to your toolkit first before you look to blaming. It's not the system. It's not the person. It's not the team. It's not the CRM. Look to yourself, say, "What am I not focusing on so that I can engage people around the things that matter?"

- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Great. Yeah, that's exactly what I think, at least I aspire that all the episodes in this podcast will be the types of little nuggets of information that people throw away for the right time. And when they're out of ideas, they can go back and maybe look at Episode 3, leading behavioral changes, and see what do they say about it.

- Or they can send one of us an email, and we'll give them a little nugget.

- Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a good segue. We kind of started talking about this, like people retaining and remembering what we talked about. So of course, we covered a lot in the past 35 minutes. That's great. I know that most people will retain a good chunk of that for the next couple of hours. Then maybe by next week, they'll retain a little bit. And then a month or two from now, very little. So if you could wish that there's a few things that people will remember even a few months from now, what would those things be? What do you want listeners to remember the most?

- So I think the first thing I'd like listeners to remember is focus on what matters. Set clear expectations. It makes such a difference when a leader says, "Here's what I expect." So that I think is first. If you think your expectations are unclear, make them clearer. That's first. Then second, generate energy. We want little booster shots of energy. We want our leaders to notice when we do something well. Say, "I mentioned this expectation. I just saw you do it fabulously. Thanks." So really generate energy, whether it's through acknowledgement, or rewards, or recognition, but really boost people when you see them doing things right. That old expression, catch people doing things right. That I think is number two, especially in sales and marketing because there's so much that we do that goes unseen. So when you see it, call it out. I love that. And then the third one, and this is the one that people usually laugh is I'm like, "Be kind to yourself." If you don't know how to do something, ask a trusted colleague. find somebody who does it well, keep learning. It's not that trite, continuous learning. I don't know how to do something right now. I need to get some help. Everything I've tried isn't as effective as I'd hope. I need to get some help. So that's what I would say. Focus on explicit expectations, generate energy, and always ask for help.

- Mm-hmm, great. Those are really good pieces of advice for people to follow in general, not even just in sales marketing. That's great. Yeah, I appreciate it. Actually, regarding the second one, it's funny because when you said generate energy, little boosters of energy, and then you gave the example of how you have to call out if someone is doing something because a lot of things are behind the scenes. I think that's especially true for marketing.

- Yes.

- People that are not part of marketing, they just don't see it. And sometimes we create our weekly reports on Friday for the whole executive team to review. We have our ops meeting on Monday, and we go through that, and our CEO reads them. But sometimes people joke with me that I'm very specific in my reports. And I tell them I'm specific because I want to give credit to everyone who's done something. So instead of saying the website has been launched, and it's in the most passive way, it didn't launch itself on its own.

- No.

- And it's not just that we clicked the button, it got launched. There are so many different things that happened. So I want to say that someone created the creatives for this, someone worked on the backend to make sure that all the technical stuff is okay. Someone is getting ready to promote it after that. And all of this needs to be mentioned. Otherwise, it's gonna be left behind the scenes. So that really, again, caught my attention.

- Yeah.

- Thanks, I appreciate it.

- And Emil, I would say that again, there's two ways. Brilliant, keep it up. Don't ever change giving people credit in your reports to leadership. Also remember to give them that credit one-on-one, face-to-face. Call them up and say, "Wow. Can you believe six months ago, we started this crazy website launch? Here it is. Have I said thank you enough?" 'Cause that's just a boost in someone's day. 'Cause you know they were slogging away. We all do it. You're working late at night crying. Those verbal recognitions, they carry a lot of weight. So well done. Keep it up.

- Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, so I promised in the beginning of the podcast episode that we gonna get back to the two truths and one lie that you gave us. So let's see. I'm curious for myself and for everyone else's sake which one is the lie. Let's see if we guessed right.

- Are you gonna guess, or do I just tell you?

- No, let me hear from you first, and I'll tell you my reaction.

- Okay. All right. So the lie was my husband and I have not lived in six countries together. I have lived in six countries on three continents, but he's only lived in four.

- I actually thought of this as the lie and I'll tell you why because I knew that you've lived in six countries and you make it-

- Oh, you do know that.

- But then I was thinking, so she would not go with that if she already knows that I pretty much know that. I mean, and it's on your website. People will know about it maybe if they looked you up before that. So I was thinking there is a catch. And the catch is that you're very specific saying, "My husband and I." And then you said it and I was just thinking, "Okay, so that must be it."

- That's the .

- But I don't know.

- You just listen too well and pay too much attention, I can't trick you, Emil. No way.

- No, I mean the other two, they were also esoteric enough to start thinking she wouldn't be drawing them at me if they weren't truths because it's the obvious. People would say, "Okay, this is too obvious to be a lie."

- Well, you're gonna have to help me come up with better truths than lies for the next time. I'm gonna come for you for some coaching on how to make it more difficult.

- I guess I've been just playing that game a lot recently and that's why. But no, I appreciate it. Those were very interesting ones. And I hope that the audience was also interested to guess and find out. So that wraps up our episode. Thank you so much. That was a lot of fun. I knew that's going into this is gonna be a fun episode, but it definitely exceeded my expectations. So I appreciate you talking to us about leadership and driving behavioral change. Thanks for joining me. And I hope we get to record another one in the future. But thanks so much, Olivia.

- Thank you, Emil. Honestly, I was so thrilled when you asked me to join. And I'm so happy to do this. And this conversation was fun for me too. So I'll help you anytime.

- All right. Thanks, Olivia. Have a good day.

- Bye-bye.

- You too.