- Hello and welcome to the inaugural episode of the Cerebrations Podcast.

- Today, we're going to talk about two interesting topics that rarely get mentioned in conjunction with sales and marketing, but they should. We'll talk about improv, as in improvisational theater, and storytelling.

- I chose to start my podcast series with this topic because I believe that every sales and marketing leader needs to be good at telling a compelling story, but also at listening actively for clues from the person on the other side and modifying the story based on that feedback.

- To kick off this first episode, I have invited a very special guest. Her name is Anna Ong, and she'll be joining us today all the way from Singapore. Anna is an ex-banker who now leads her own consultancy, helping professionals and organizations hone their communications and storytelling abilities to be on top of their game. She's an avid traveler, and you can often run into her across several different continents within the same week. I have a dear place in my heart for Anna because she and I went to the same business school, INSEAD.

- Without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, let me bring Anna on our virtual stage.

- Hi, Anna, welcome to my podcast. How are you today?

- Oh, I'm great. It's, what time is it now? It's 10:49 here in Singapore. I'm 12 hours ahead of you, I think.

- Yeah, yeah, it's almost midnight here, but thanks so much for dialing in all the way from Singapore. So, I heard that there was a massive downpour in Singapore just a few hours ago. So what happened? Did you get caught in that mess? You know, how was it to be out in the rain?

- Well, I was at the gym, and I was finished, and suddenly, everything just got dark. When I looked out the window, it was just a massive downpour like, you know. It looked like, you know, like a very, very strong high-powered shower. So, I didn't have my umbrella with me, so like I'm not going out in that weather because you basically would come out within 30 seconds, a drowned rat.

- All right, well, it was a, you call it high-powered shower, and I guess that's a good segue into a high-powered conversation now. So, great to hear that. And, thanks again, for finding the time and being able to join me, even though you had this little issue with the rain coming back from the gym. So to get started, just to break the ice, let's play a little game. Let's do the following. You tell me three things about yourself, and two of those need to be true, but the third one is a lie. And they don't have to be in this order, obviously. And don't tell me and the listeners to this podcast, don't tell us which one is which at the moment. Just tell me and the audience the three things that you want us to consider about yourself, while we're going through this episode. And once we're done with that, after that, I'm gonna leave the answer about the truths and the lie until the very end of the episode. And that way, everyone has an incentive to listen to this great episode and to find out if they guessed correctly what's true and what's not true about our guest, Anna. But, to get started, why don't you tell me thing number one? What's one thing that we should know about you?

- Oh, so not the two truths and a lie? Okay . Is it?

- Well, I mean, from the truths and the lie. Yeah, from the three, tell me one of them.

- Okay, okay.

- Let's start with that. One, two, three, yeah, which one?

- Okay, so I have a blue belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

- Okay, blue belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. What else should we know about you?

- Yeah.

- Like, what's another truth or lie?

- So, I'm a professional tango dancer.

- Professional tango dancer. All right, and what's the last one?

- And I am, I would say I ran the Tokyo Marathon.

- Hm, all right, you ran the Tokyo Marathon. All right, for everyone listening to this podcast, I'm gonna leave this as a cliffhanger. Let's wait until the end of the episode, and we'll learn more about Anna by knowing how well she lies, or whether she lies or not. But in the meantime, just to learn a little bit more about your personality. If you don't mind, tell me what is your biggest passion in life?

- So, oh, God, I have so many passions, but I think 'til now my biggest passion would probably be about storytelling, whether it's improvised, or it's one of those stories you tell on stage, but spontaneously at an Armando, which is an improv format, or whether it is up on stage, like similar in Washington, DC, at the Moth where you share five minute story about yourself.

- Okay, great, so that's actually a segue into what I wanted to ask you about yourself and about what you do professionally. So, I know that you have a company, a consulting company, and it's abbreviated W-Y-S-H, WYSH. Can you tell me what the acronym stands for? And you know, just give us your elevator pitch of what WYSH does.

- Okay, WYSH stands for What's Your Story Huh? So it's a homage to Singapore, because when I first moved to Singapore, a lot of the conversation they would say huh, huh. They always end everything with huh. So when I was thinking about the name of my company, I wanted something around what's your story, but what's your story pronounces as WIS. And so I figured, oh, and then I was like, "What's your story, huh?" And H becomes like wish and I figured like, my company's name is wish with a Y because all your stories starts with your why.

- Hmm, interesting, okay. Well, that's a good story. You know, when I stayed in Singapore for a few months, I always thought that they end the sentences with la. But I guess they do it with huh as well, so.

- Lah, huh, lor, meh.

- All right.

- There's a lot.

- But huh means, well, I mean, it works well with your abbreviation, so that's great.

- Yeah.

- Awesome, awesome. All right, so you know, just in case everyone who's listening wants to know a little bit more about you and maybe book you for a session, what should they do, how can they get in touch with you?

- So I have a website, www.Anna-Ong.com. So there, there's a link that says work with Anna. Just click that and you can drop me an email. Alternatively, you can also find me on LinkedIn under Anna Ong Storyteller Singapore.

- Okay, great. And I am just gonna add here my selfish plug and I'm gonna put a banner at the bottom that basically tells people that they can go to Cerebrations.info where they can also find out a little bit more about you. I'm gonna have the contact information that you just shared. But also, they can find other episodes with other guests. So thank you very much. So, the topic of this episode is "The Power of Improv," that's at least the title that I chose for it. And I just, you know, one thing that I always wanted to ask you is what, in your mind, people get most often wrong about improv? Like, what are some of the biggest misconceptions about that?

- So, people say improv is about making things up. Well, actually, improv is about using what's out there. It's being observant, and listening, paying attention to what's going on, and building on it.

- Okay, all right. So, listening, building, paying attention. So, I mean, obviously, you mentioned storytelling as well. So what is the connection between improv and storytelling? You tell a story to explain improv, but like how do we connect it to the other part?

- So improv, most of the time, if you guys watch improv scenes, they tell a story. There's always still a bit of a narrative, but it might not be traditional. It could be about an experience. But improv, so storytelling often is known as the not so funny version of stand-up. You have to prepare for it. There is a very clear line of which, a clear trajectory. You know where you're gonna start. You know where you're going to end. Well, in improv, it unfolds right in front of you. And while you know how you started it, you're not quite so sure which you're gonna go and when it's going to end. Because the magic happens as it unfolds. So improv is more about storytelling in the moment, and then storytelling is a bit more prepared, practiced, a little bit more forward planning involved.

- Okay, okay, that makes a lot of sense. So, you know, after you mentioned storytelling and improv so many times, I have to ask you, what are some personal lessons that you've learned from improv?

- So with improv, I think it's about how to listen, observe better, I think. One of the things I learned from improv is like, I feel like I'm a much better communicator now, because improv trained my muscles to pay attention, observe, listen to people's ideas and build on it. It's a great way to make connections. It's a great way to, also for yourself, to allow yourself to inspire and be inspired by other people. I think, and one of my improv coaches says, like, you know, "Yeah, you just make yourself, it makes networking more fun now."

- I see, I see. So obviously, the way I'm structuring these podcast episodes is I'm trying to focus on providing some advice and tips for aspiring, but also experienced sales and marketing leaders in order for them to get to better leadership, or better greatness, if you will, of their leadership style. So let's get a little more specific here to the actual topic of the podcast. You know, a few weeks ago, you and I were chatting and I heard something from you that kind of got me thinking. And that's that to, you know, to sales folks, improv seems to be more relevant. Because they can't always prepare for, I mean, obviously, preparation is important, but they can't always expect what's going to happen. And storytelling seems to be more on the side of marketing. Because, at the end of the day, you know, there is enough time to develop a story and you build on that story. So do you agree with me on this? Like, how do you see that?

- I agree with you in that way, because like, storytelling, it's definitely, marketing is definitely all over storytelling. It's about giving you a nice narrative for you to buy something. Sales can use storytelling when they do a sales pitch, because the sales pitch is a story on its own. However, sometimes your client might not be interested in hearing your pitch, so this is where improv comes along. Because you wanna check in also with your audience or with your customer as to what is it that they want from you. Oftentimes, we have an idea of what we think we want, but if we never check in with the client, then they might not be able to, they might not want to buy what we're selling, because it's not answering their needs, or you're not listening to what they really want.

- Mm-hmm, okay. So, I mean, I know that you have a lot of clients, though I'm hoping that some of those were on the sales and marketing side. Can you share some kind of stories, some examples of how they can, in their daily lives, apply some of the techniques that you're teaching?

- Yeah, so a lot actually. So recently, I get a lot more demands, requests on how to listen for teams. Because it's about how to listen, how to pay attention, and build on people's ideas. So we run through a lot of improv games about active listening. Because it's very key when you're working with customers, especially when it's understanding their needs in order for you to service them better. Whether you're a consultant, you know, delivering a project for a client, or whether you are, so yeah, it applies for everything. Services or pharmaceutical company, you're trying to understand what exactly does the client want, what their concerns are. Because everybody wants to feel seen and heard. They don't want someone to just keep pushing. And oftentimes, I think, like sales people sometimes get the bad rep that they're always pushing for something. But then, and I remember, I was in sales, someone told me, "Everybody wants to buy, but nobody wants to be sold to."

- Mm-hmm.

- So and I find that it works when I work with clients, is that half the time I spend my time just sitting down listening to them tell me about their concerns. And then, in the end, the only time I make my pitch is when I finally understood what they needed by listening, paraphrasing and then figuring out in terms of what, our products or services, we can offer to help address their needs.

- Mm-hmm, okay. Well, I mean, that's actually interesting. 'Cause I've also done a few exercises with you a few years ago and, you know, those were great. I wish I had more, you know, a chance to do more of those. But we did some of this active listening at the time. And I'm not, obviously, forcing you here to do a full lesson, but can you just like, maybe explain a little bit more of like some basic exercises for people to think about active listening? What they should be doing?

- Okay, so remember that game where you, so oftentimes, we tend to listen to respond. So we only listen the conversation halfway through and then we're already thinking about how to answer back. So listening to understand is you have to wait for the other person to finish to the very end, before you formulate a response. And one of the games I think we played was that you cannot start your next sentence until the other person finishes their last word. And your first word has to be their last word. So in some ways, I think everybody sounded like Yoda.

- Mm-hmm, yeah.

- Because then you can't really think about a reply. Because and they're like finish your sentence, finish your sentence.

- But actually, yeah, I mean, so that's, I remember that exercise. It was kind of uncomfortable, to say the least. Because a lot of people, I guess, are afraid when they hear something interesting, first of all, they, I guess, they don't wanna forget it, they want to follow up on that. So they're keeping a mental note about it and that kind of preoccupies their mind. The other thing is, I think, at least I am, I fall in that boat and maybe others too, they're just afraid of after that, having this awkward silence, right. Like, you finished your sentence and then the other person is waiting for a little bit before they can formulate their own thought and starts talking. So what do you do? Like, how do you suggest that people can overcome that?

- I often say enjoy the silence. You're right, people are not used to keeping the pause. I find there's beauty in it. Like, even when dancing, I remember when I fist started to learn how to dance, like you know partnered dancing, my dance teacher goes, "Anna, you gotta enjoy the wait." Because as a female dancer, normally, you're a follower. So you have to wait for the lead to make the next move. Because dancing is a conversation with the other person, but with your body, right. And sometimes but, so I want to take the next step but I can't, I have to wait for the lead to give me a signal. And so sometimes, my teacher, "Anna, just enjoy the wait, hold the pause." And that, I think, is very unnerving and uncomfortable because you have to trust. Trust yourself and trust your partner or whoever you're talking to as well, that they'll be patient.

- So, yeah, trust is important. But then, in that case, is it correct to assume that you're implying that people should do a lot of training themselves? They should be, you know, this should become second nature to them. It's not something that they can achieve in a short period of time, I assume.

- Well, active listening is a mindful exercise. It requires daily practice. About listening, it makes, it helps, I mean, you can't lose practicing it. It makes you better at conversations. One of my students before told me when I gave them as homework to the active listening and paraphrasing, he said, "My wife likes me better now."

- Oh wow, so you're actually a marriage counselor now not only-

- Yeah. A coach.

- Yeah, so, extra perks. Because he's like, "Yeah, my wife likes me a lot better." And then he goes, "I wasn't able to practice this in my meeting, but I practiced it at home with my wife, and she really feels that I heard her this time."

- Okay, well, I think that's great feedback. You should put it on your website.

- Yes .

- All right, well, that's great stuff. So thank you for providing these examples. I know that we can't just do a full exercise here on the podcast episode, but I just wanted to provide a little bit of a tangible example so that it's easier for people to understand what it is, if they haven't been exposed to it. So I'm really hoping that any of the podcast episodes that I am planning to record, they're educational and insightful. And this particularly, because it's also on a topic that probably doesn't really get brought up many times in a sales and marketing context. And I think that's why it's a little more unique. And from that point of view, it's probably also very useful because people haven't thought about some of these things that we just talked about today. But you know, as I wish that my interviews are not only entertaining, but also, they are helping listeners retain something for the future, something that will make them great leaders, let me ask you this. Let's assume, you know, two or three months after this podcast episode gets out and people listen to it, if you were to have a wish and if your wish can come true, what do you wish that the audiences that are listening to us now are retaining? What are the two, three key takeaways, key nuggets that you want them to remember about improv and storytelling?

- I want them to remember that improv is more about active listening. It's about building on ideas, versus making things up. Because like I always say, everything you need is right there. Similarly, storytelling, when it comes to personal narratives, I would always tell my students, like, "no extra preparation needed, because everything you need, you already have it with you." Both improv and storytelling requires people to work off the top of their intelligence. And as, I've said this actually in another interview, it's like, we go through life unscripted. So improv should come to us more naturally. It's about just paying attention and being in the moment because often, we're always either in the past or in the future, we're never right here.

- Interesting, okay. Actually, one thing you mentioned is a little surprising to me. You said that storytelling does not really require preparation. And I'm a little confused, maybe just me, or maybe other listeners too, so I wanted to ask you. But you mentioned in the beginning that storytelling is also the one that's a little more formal from the point of view like there's forward thinking. So how do you reconcile these things?

- Let me explain, sorry. When I say no extra preparation needed, it means you don't need to do research or background work. 'Cause most people, they, kind of like, you know, when you're busy making, you have a presentation, you're busy making your PowerPoint and you forget about how to deliver the presentation.

- Right.

- I mean, that's where, actually, most people fail. They're making fancy slides that they never think about, like, oh, so how am I gonna deliver it. Storytelling in a way is like, when I say no preparation needed, it's like you don't need to make slides about it, it's because the information you have is already with you.

- Right, it's in your head.

- The preparation is, the preparation that you need is about how do you craft it and how do you deliver it. That is where you need to practice. And that's where people always say, oh, I don't need to do that.

- Mm-hmm, yeah.

- So that's what I meant by there's no extra preparation needed, it's because you don't need to do any research or background work. You have all of it in you.

- Okay, that makes sense, thanks for clarifying that. 'Cause I, you know, I was just kind of thinking, all right, well, you mentioned that, and it kind of makes sense, but on the other hand, you talked about something else in the beginning. So I just wanted to make sure that I'm connecting the dots here. Great, great. So I think, you know, in general, that kind of covers the questions that I had for you today. Thank you very much for that. But I wanted to ask you now, I mean, we promised-

- Oh yeah.

- In the beginning that we're gonna talk about the two truths and one lie that you gave us. And let's get back to the cliffhanger. Which of the three things that you told us upfront about yourself is the lie?

- Oh the lie is like, I am not a professional tango dancer or a professional dancer at all.

- Oh, yeah.

- I love to dance. I had moved to South America to learn how to dance. And I danced for a couple of, I've had lots of dance lessons, but I've never danced professionally.

- Hmm, see, so that's where you got me, 'cause, you know, you like to talk about dance, you mentioned it even earlier in this interview, that you're giving examples of your tango lessons and all that stuff. So, very naturally, I thought that this was one of the true things about you but you got me there, so . I'm not sure what the rest of the audience thought about your first, you know, when you gave your first three things about yourself, which one they thought would be the lie. But to me, that was a surprise. So thank you very much, you managed to surprise me at the end. And that wraps up our episode for today. Thanks, Anna. I hope that Singapore is sunnier tomorrow. No more downpours, although, you never know. But I appreciate your coming on our podcast. And thank you very much, speak to you later.